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Offline Sophia  
#1 Posted : Friday, July 23, 2010 6:28:32 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/21/2008(UTC)
Posts: 405
I went to the Science Museum in Singapore and they had a Computer simulation how you would look in 10, 20, 30, 40 years.
Scary freak show. Not good.

But what struck me is that the skin gets darker as we age. Even if our skin does not see any sun, (and I am using Retin A, Copper peptides and Glycolic acid and of course 50+ sunscream) there is something which makes the skin look darker.

Also I am seeing dark spots recently and I am so careful with the sun outside.

Any ideas what to do against them?
And why do we get this darker quality to the skin?
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Offline kosmeds  
#2 Posted : Friday, July 23, 2010 7:04:31 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/8/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,114
Their simulations did not take into account people who use PPD 30 for their entire lives. The sun is what makes skin darken.

The SPF doesn't matter as much, it's the UVA protection factor that does. If your sunscreen doesn't have a high UVA protection factor it might not be doing much to prevent your skin from darkening and sagging.

But even with protection, all systems fail with age. This means even the melanocytes will get dysfunctional at some point--sooner without protection and later with protection--manifested as spots of both hypo (less) and hyper (more)-pigmentation. Intrinsic aging alone will lead to spottiness, patches of dark and patches of light, but not overall darkening. And it might not happen until 90 or so if you take good care of your skin.

You can keep your melanocytes young and properly functioning for longer with your high PPD sunscreen and rx retinoid.
Offline Anato  
#3 Posted : Sunday, July 25, 2010 4:05:15 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,807
Good answer, Kosmeds. I haven't been in a bathing suit since I was 18, but practically lived at the pool before that and never used sunscreen at all. Today, I can still barely see the outline of my bathing suit bc the skin under the suit was untouched by the sun and still very light. When I take niacin that flushes, I can really see it for some reason, bc I turn red everywhere except where my suit covered...as if I had been laying out in the sun. Funny thing about that is, I can actually see the dif. suit straps...and I go, "oh yes, I remember that suit."

My grandmother would make me wear a big hat and even gloves, but I just took them off when she wasn't looking...But when I turned 18, even though I hadn't seen her in a very long time, one particular day, It came to me, "you are going to look like an alligator if you keep going in the sun", and from that one DAY forward that was the complete end of my pool and beach days. Later it came out how bad the sun was for skin. I wish I had listened to her sooner, bc she knew before others knew and my skin would be really great now. As a consequence of those pool days, I have brown spots popping out all over my face, arms and hands and even a few on my legs that I have to fight. But point is, the virgin skin is still very light.
Offline mich  
#4 Posted : Sunday, July 25, 2010 2:03:46 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
Offline MissJ  
#5 Posted : Sunday, July 25, 2010 2:55:22 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 23,695
kosmeds,
This is probably a 'stupid' question but have you ever considered moving to Ireland where the sun is just not that intensive. I'd go nuts if I lived in Florida and had to slather up all the time with that kind of sun.
Offline kosmeds  
#6 Posted : Sunday, July 25, 2010 3:15:27 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/8/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,114
No, it's not a stupid question. Yes, I obsessed over that for a long time. I'm pretty much stuck here while my dad is still alive because he's not well and he needs me around. Maybe in the future if I get an opportunity to move closer to the North Pole, I'll take it and run with it.

I have a "friend" in Stockholm and another in Helsinki; they are both around 60 degrees North whereas I am currently at 29 degrees North.

But UVA does not vary as much with latitude as UVB does. There would still be a need for high UVA protection, and UVA is the larger contributor to skin sags. Here is a pic from my book.

http://imgur.com/aUglV.jpg

and here is the action spectrum for skin sagging in the mouse (UVA is from 320-400 nm). In humans, it is thought to be shifted to even higher wavelengths.

http://imgur.com/IrqXX.jpg

Offline MissJ  
#7 Posted : Sunday, July 25, 2010 3:25:29 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 23,695
Oh, OK. LOL, all I know the Irish have nice skin because they dont get much sun there.
Offline rm1961  
#8 Posted : Monday, July 26, 2010 3:20:06 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/7/2009(UTC)
Posts: 375
Woman
Location: MA
I would venture that most people in the U.S. haven't even heard of PPD so unless you were born in the last decade, it's unlikely one is using PPD 30 for their entire lives. I just came back from two weeks in a high elevation city in the West(6,000 feet above sea level) and asked a lot of people what kind of sunblock they used. No one had heard of PPD, everyone talks about SPF 30...and from the little I know, SPF 30 became available (I think) to the public in the 1980's. I used Neutrogena DryTouch 85 or Anthelios 60, wore a wide brimmed hat, sunglasses and long sleeves every day and TRIED to avoid the midday sun. The couple days I went to the beach, I sat under a large umbrella with long sleeves, legs covered, hat, shades, slathered in sunscreen, etc.

I'm Irish but grew up in the 60's and 70's when tanning was encouraged. My mother knew nothing and told me how cute I looked with a tan. Through being athletic outdoors and always being told I looked young, I continued to tan into my early 40's and my pale white Irish skin is sadly a thing of the past. Maybe in my next life I'll get it right. :)
Offline fixit  
#9 Posted : Monday, July 26, 2010 4:45:18 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/22/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,405
Location: Montreal
I have some irish ancestry and have always been a sun avoider because it made me dizzy (low blood pressure). I just came back from 2 weeks in Miami(Fl) and looked into the sunscreens offerred there. Verdict: nothing but crap in a place where the sun is brutally intense. My wife and I had brought hats, UV protection shirts (extremely tightly woven cotton) and 2 tubes of Anthelios XL (100ml) and 2 tubes of Vichy Capital Soliel XL (150 ml)(same compostion as Anthelios XL ). All 4 tubes were new and within the span of those 2 weeks we nearly ran out of sunscreen for just 3 of us. If i hadn't cut open the tubes to scrape all the remaining sunscreen we would have ran out and nothing to replace them with.

Just to let everyone know PPD is a european term that is almost totally unknown to most north americans. Even in canada where the sunscreens have mostly the same composition as in Europe, the bottles will not indicate any PPD factor. The tubes of vichy and Anthelios I have only vaguely mention they offer UVA protection - I have to search for the european label to see how much UVA protection they offer. Quite simply unfortuneately noone seems to take UVA protection seriously. Look at all the tanning salons that still exist and all those sunbathers on the beech.

Truely knowledge folks such as those here (kosmeds, ect) are few and far between. Actually while in Miami there was one surfer guy who knew enough to tell me that the bathing top I was looking into only offerred UVB protection (labelled SPF 50+) and very little UVA.

In the US it is also completely useless to try to deduce the UVA protection from the SPF. Asides from helioplex and ZnO all other active ingredients have no proven long term UVA blocking capacity. I also don't trust the stability of Helioplex - basically made from 2 proven unstable chemicals and magically said to be stable!!!!
Offline kosmeds  
#10 Posted : Monday, July 26, 2010 7:42:09 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/8/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,114
[Asides from helioplex and ZnO all other active ingredients have no proven long term UVA blocking capacity. I also don't trust the stability of Helioplex - basically made from 2 proven unstable chemicals and magically said to be stable!!!!]

I believe it. Avobenzone's stability behavior depends on the solvent and the presence of other ingredients. Its stability is much improved in polar, protic solvents, such as isopropanol. But even in less ideal solvents, it can be improved by adding molecules that convert the excited triplet state (when its excited by photon strikes) to something more benign that can be then converted back to its original configuration.

There are a lot of avobenzone stabilizers on the market now. DEHN (the one that Johnson & Johnson uses) works best at 6% but they use it at 4% in their formulations. The paper that Bonda described his work in is within this FDA document:

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms...ep00/091500/c000586.pdf

A full list of avobenzone stabilizers is here:
4-Methylbenzylidene camphor (USAN Enzacamene)
Tinosorb S (USAN Bemotrizinol, INCI Bis-Ethylhexyloxyphenol Methoxyphenyl Triazine)
Tinosorb M (USAN Bisoctrizole, INCI Methylene Bis-Benzotriazolyl Tetramethylbutylphenol)
Butyloctyl Salicylate (Tradename HallBrite BHB - [1])
Hexadecyl Benzoate
Butyloctyl Benzoate
Mexoryl SX (USAN Ecamsule, INCI Terephthalylidene Dicamphor Sulfonic Acid)
Corapan TQ (INCI Diethylhexyl 2,6-Naphthalate)[8]
Parsol SLX (INCI Polysilicone-15)[9]
Oxynex ST (INCI Diethylhexyl Syringylidene Malonate)[10]
Polycrylene (INCI Polyester-8)[11]
SolaStay® S1 (INCI Ethylhexyl Methoxycrylene)[12]
Offline Sophia  
#11 Posted : Monday, July 26, 2010 6:33:22 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/21/2008(UTC)
Posts: 405
Thanks so much kosmeds for your detailed explanation. It makes perfect sense to me.
I do whatever it takes to not expose the skin to the sun but still I find that I cannot protect my skin from age spots. That sucks. At least oerall it looks good.
When I compare my skin to my daughters it is still darker. And she is a little tanned.

For the age spots in the face is there any laser which can help?





kosmeds wrote:
Their simulations did not take into account people who use PPD 30 for their entire lives. The sun is what makes skin darken.

The SPF doesn't matter as much, it's the UVA protection factor that does. If your sunscreen doesn't have a high UVA protection factor it might not be doing much to prevent your skin from darkening and sagging.

But even with protection, all systems fail with age. This means even the melanocytes will get dysfunctional at some point--sooner without protection and later with protection--manifested as spots of both hypo (less) and hyper (more)-pigmentation. Intrinsic aging alone will lead to spottiness, patches of dark and patches of light, but not overall darkening. And it might not happen until 90 or so if you take good care of your skin.

You can keep your melanocytes young and properly functioning for longer with your high PPD sunscreen and rx retinoid.
Offline Sophia  
#12 Posted : Monday, July 26, 2010 6:36:25 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/21/2008(UTC)
Posts: 405
Oh yes, I also wished I listened to my grandma when she said I should wear gloves in the snow and take care in the summer too.
Young and naive I was.
Grandmas are so right sometimes.



Anato wrote:
Good answer, Kosmeds. I haven't been in a bathing suit since I was 18, but practically lived at the pool before that and never used sunscreen at all. Today, I can still barely see the outline of my bathing suit bc the skin under the suit was untouched by the sun and still very light. When I take niacin that flushes, I can really see it for some reason, bc I turn red everywhere except where my suit covered...as if I had been laying out in the sun. Funny thing about that is, I can actually see the dif. suit straps...and I go, "oh yes, I remember that suit."

My grandmother would make me wear a big hat and even gloves, but I just took them off when she wasn't looking...But when I turned 18, even though I hadn't seen her in a very long time, one particular day, It came to me, "you are going to look like an alligator if you keep going in the sun", and from that one DAY forward that was the complete end of my pool and beach days. Later it came out how bad the sun was for skin. I wish I had listened to her sooner, bc she knew before others knew and my skin would be really great now. As a consequence of those pool days, I have brown spots popping out all over my face, arms and hands and even a few on my legs that I have to fight. But point is, the virgin skin is still very light.
Offline kosmeds  
#13 Posted : Monday, July 26, 2010 7:28:07 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/8/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,114
Sophia wrote:
For the age spots in the face is there any laser which can help?


Fraxel or Q-switched YAG. IPL might be helpful. I'm more of a peel fan, though--up to 8 moderate-depth TCA peels can be performed and they should be a lot cheaper than devices.

If the problem is deep in the dermis it might take years to resolve. If it's epidermal, 3-6 months of topical might be enough. I'd use a 4% hydroquinone (rx), keep using the retin-A, use PPD 30 STAT and lots of it, a wide-brimmed hat or visor, wrap-around sunglasses, and possibly higher strength glycolic acids on weekends. I'd also eliminate recreational sun exposure. If that's not possible, then reapply the sunscreen every hour and use only something with a PPD of at least 28 which eliminates almost everything except the most protective Bioderma and Anthelios European formulas.

Other things that might be mildly useful are azelaic acid, vitamin C, kojic acid, and niacinamide.

It will help if your derm is an expert in pigmentation problems in people with your skin type.
Offline Sophia  
#14 Posted : Monday, July 26, 2010 10:51:22 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/21/2008(UTC)
Posts: 405
Thanks so much.
Yes, I will start using the European formulas sunscreens 50+ again (not difficult to get here because I am on my vacation in Germany).
Then Retin A and Glycolic for sure.
I have a higher Glycolic acid which I sometimes use. The 4% hydroquinone I can get in India without prescription. I have used it before but it is such a stinking stuff that I gave up. (I do not like the smell and consistency of the cream).

I am also more a peel fan, I am so paranoid of any fat loss from lasers it is ridiculous. So I will try more of the peel thing.

Is there any peel besides glycolic which I can do at home?
Thanks so much for your help.




Fraxel or Q-switched YAG. IPL might be helpful. I'm more of a peel fan, though--up to 8 moderate-depth TCA peels can be performed and they should be a lot cheaper than devices.

If the problem is deep in the dermis it might take years to resolve. If it's epidermal, 3-6 months of topical might be enough. I'd use a 4% hydroquinone (rx), keep using the retin-A, use PPD 30 STAT and lots of it, a wide-brimmed hat or visor, wrap-around sunglasses, and possibly higher strength glycolic acids on weekends. I'd also eliminate recreational sun exposure. If that's not possible, then reapply the sunscreen every hour and use only something with a PPD of at least 28 which eliminates almost everything except the most protective Bioderma and Anthelios European formulas.

Other things that might be mildly useful are azelaic acid, vitamin C, kojic acid, and niacinamide.

It will help if your derm is an expert in pigmentation problems in people with your skin type.
Offline kosmeds  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, July 27, 2010 12:28:26 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/8/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,114
Sophia wrote:
Is there any peel besides glycolic which I can do at home?


This study found glycolic 20-35% to be more effective than TCA 10=20%
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20657143

Any other AHA will be less effective than glycolic (assuming same concentration and pH) and salicylic will not be as effective, either. Glycolic has the smallest molecule and penetrates most deeply.

It's probably not a good idea to try more than 20% TCA at home, especially unbuffered. You could scar yourself. I'd get the derm to do a series of real peels at 35% with a pre-peel. These will take about 2 weeks to recover from, each, they are very serious and painful. It might take 8 of them.

Adding an ascorbic acid topical will improve efficacy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17524124

But use your HQ and tretinoin also. Three months on HQ, three months off HQ is probably the safest way to use it. Some people get worse when they use too much of it because it can make the melanocytes go crazy, but most of these people are probably not taking their sun protection very seriously.
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