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Offline makingchoices  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, November 7, 2018 7:33:55 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 12/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 179
I found this on a website for Dr Daniel Man in Boca Raton. He was written up in Life Extension magazine which I thought was unusual , so I looked him up. Anyone have any experience with him?


I am still trying to decide between getting a few skin treatments( IPL, lip injections etc...)for now and Dr Marten FL in a year or so- or to just do Dr Marten right away. Its the downtime/recovery afterwards that has me hesitating. I would need to take time off and that's loss of income too.
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Offline Robin  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, November 7, 2018 8:22:42 PM(UTC)
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I don't know about the particular modality you are referring to, but I will say that IPL and lip injections aren't going to satisfy your desire for change if you are "ready" for surgery (have significant aging that can be addressed surgically). But if you're not ready for surgery of course you shouldn't rush into it, and surgery is not a panacea either.

Anything that you can do to your skin that is touted as a facelift alternative without being under sedation is not going to do anything more than create some transient swelling and possibly eliminate fine lines. There are lots of BS photos that tout things like this as facelift alternatives but the after pics show only swelling, fine line softening and people smiling and lifting their jowls. Even if you have something like a phenol or croton oil peel (which does require anesthesia) it will tighten up the dermis but not the underlying structure.

IPL is very mild and helps with superficial texture, uneven color and redness.
Offline makingchoices  
#3 Posted : Thursday, November 8, 2018 6:16:55 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 179
I agree fully Robin. I didn't post clearly. I have already had a good facelift 8 years ago with Dr Little ( who has since retired). I am needing another one and am under no illusions about the difference between a FL and other procedures. It's finding the space in my schedule and the energy for the recovery that is the roadblock.

I'm also interested in the newer rejuvenation options out there just for skin health and tone improvement - collagen regrowth etc...
Offline MissJ  
#4 Posted : Thursday, November 8, 2018 2:30:46 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 26,432
I've had a look at his website. I've noticed the following:

1: For individual procedures, ie, face lift, neck lift, brow lift etc., he does not mention the OTHER procedures the patient had. Although you can look at photos of each procedure to find that the same patient listed for say a 'neck lift' also had a face lift, IMO, it is preferable for a WRITTEN description of ALL the procedures a patient had.

A GLARING example of that, especially for a potential patient looking up SKIN ONLY modalities (no surgery) is when you click on SCULPTRA. If that's all you looked at, you would think the patient had ONLY sculptra. But same Sculptra case#7 is also Necklift case #6 and 'tri lift' case #1. So, I had to SIFT THROUGH THE SUBTERFUGE to find out that 'sculptra' patient got MORE than just that.

2: With regard to his facelift/necklifts, especially the neck lifts, they are NOT as good/impressive as are Marten's. Although that is neither 'here nor there' given his patients are happy with his work and I don't mean to hold any to all doctors to the standards of a doctor known for doing complex neck work, in YOUR case IF you consulted with him about what ever skin stuff he does, IMO, you would have to be BRACED to 'hold your ground' in the event he tried to 'sell you' on having the surgery facework with him. I say this because I notice a LOT of:

3: MARKETING and promotion. For example, just looking at the photos on the website, there is a pop up message of: 'Do you want to CHAT LIVE NOW?'. Then there are videos of 'ON TV' stuff. There is even a video where the backdrop sign says: 'INCREDIBLE MARKETING'.

That said, the 'ear marks' of a LOT of MARKETING techniques to push and prompt seeking him out for what you are entertaining consulting him about (J Plasma) could result in a push and prompt for you to have your surgery face work with him which is why I suggest to RESIST that IF consulting with him about the skin stuff results in having your surgery work with him. Again, I dont mean to suggest anything 'bad' about his work. It's just that if you have someone KNOWN to be one of the best in the field WITHOUT MARKETING, you gotta be careful about being talked into surgery if you consult about some skin stuff he does.

As to the J PLASMA, from the photos--and this harks back to my critique on his photo presentation where he does NOT list ALL the patient has had--you would really have look hard for ones where it is ONLY the J Plasma and not something else with that where you would not be able to tell which one is doing what.

Conclusion: Too much undo DUE DILIGENCE on my part to SIFT THROUGH SUBTERFUGE of his photo marketing and other marketing push and prompts to ISOLATE 'what does what'in my attempt to ISOLATE 'which procedure did what'. So, if you want SKIN MODALITIES (non surgical stuff), my suggestion would be to prioritize DERMS, especially the ones with a SLEW of laser and other non surgical modalities who's PHOTO PRESENTATIONS make quite CLEAR which modality did what or just tell you in a written description ALL/EVERYTHING the patient in the photo had.

As to J PLASMA: From this YouTube video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O9JAEA5ooE

it looks like a CONTROLLED BURN that zaps off the superficial layers where you get the discoloration and also directs energy to the deeper layers. The video shows the doctor doing the whole face with it. But, low and behold we have yet ANOTHER doctor marketing it as a face lift 'alternative' (read the text description he gives) where if you look closely at what he does NOT tell you, that patient has ALSO had a FACELIFT. At time= 5:30, you see the fresh face lift and under chin incisions. So, it's looking like something best done during a surgery even though they market it as a 'substitute' for surgery OR something to explore AFTER a face lift surgery as 'icing on the cake' sort of thing.

Just try to prioritize the 'guru' type DERMS who have tons of devices who most likely are doing 'skin only' stuff or be hyper vigilent about PSs marketing this stuff but photo show casing it on patients who've actually HAD SURGERY as is the case of how this guy you found markets.
Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.


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Offline Robin  
#5 Posted : Thursday, November 8, 2018 3:18:53 PM(UTC)
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i agree with miss j that you should focus on derms with lots of lasers they use. If you are willing to travel to florida i'm pretty sure you can find derms like that in miami or ny
Offline Mike D  
#6 Posted : Thursday, November 8, 2018 4:42:38 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Between the moon and NYC
Originally Posted by: Robin Go to Quoted Post
i agree with miss j that you should focus on derms with lots of lasers they use. If you are willing to travel to florida i'm pretty sure you can find derms like that in miami or ny


Like my derm, Dr. Jill Waibel in Miami, whose focus is on lasers. She’s developed a great reputation over the years. She also has a lot of Marten patients, as she is good friends with him. She and I have discussed many times that when she is ready, she’s going to have Marten perform her lift.

I also ageee with Miss J completely. Good to see you back, Miss J!

As far as Dr. Man, I think he has a good reputation among surgeons for a device he invented called the “Man Facial Expander,” which stretches skin intraoperatively during facelifts. Long story about how it is used, (you can google it or find it on his website), but I saw a journal article once that he wrote pertaining to its use in secondary facelifts where the original surgeon took off too much skin. I’d be more impressed with his website if he came across more as an innovator than someone w/ slick marketing.

Edited by user Thursday, November 8, 2018 6:07:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: iPhone grammar

Offline MissJ  
#7 Posted : Thursday, November 8, 2018 7:23:42 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 26,432
You would be looking like an albino strawberry for a few weeks until the little brown scabs fell off. I found a more straight forward presentation of a similar device (plasma pen). As you can see, it improves skin superficially but the person in the photo still would need a face lift. Read a JAMA article where it's a good choice to use DURING a face lift. It would probably be a good finishing touch after one too. Just be vigilant about docs who try to give impression it's an alternative to a face lift, especially the ones who also do the face lifts, especially those who don't make clear in their photo presentations they use as ADJUNCT to their lifts .

UserPostedImage
Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.


If reading these posts has been helpful to you, consider helping out the board by purchasing via my AMAZON PORTAL seen at the top of each page.

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Offline MissJ  
#8 Posted : Thursday, November 8, 2018 7:41:59 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 26,432
Skin expanders have been used in PS for many years for reconstructive surgery. For reconstructive purposes, they are left in for a long time so the skin increases in surface area but stays kind of stretched out so it doesn't shrink back when it's used as skin to go over something like a burn injury.

Years back, Feldman told me that it was once common practice for some face lift surgeons to use an expander during a face lift which stretches out the skin so they can cut off more. Since it's not left in for a long time the skin still has ability to 'snap back' or shrink back which is what makes the facelift TIGHTER. However, I'm not sure if this was Man's face expander or just a generic expander.

Originally Posted by: Mike D Go to Quoted Post
Like my derm, Dr. Jill Waibel in Miami, whose focus is on lasers. She’s developed a great reputation over the years. She also has a lot of Marten patients, as she is good friends with him. She and I have discussed many times that when she is ready, she’s going to have Marten perform her lift.

I also ageee with Miss J completely. Good to see you back, Miss J!

As far as Dr. Man, I think he has a good reputation among surgeons for a device he invented called the “Man Facial Expander,” which stretches skin intraoperatively during facelifts. Long story about how it is used, (you can google it or find it on his website), but I saw a journal article once that he wrote pertaining to its use in secondary facelifts where the original surgeon took off too much skin. I’d be more impressed with his website if he came across more as an innovator than someone w/ slick marketing.


Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.


If reading these posts has been helpful to you, consider helping out the board by purchasing via my AMAZON PORTAL seen at the top of each page.

Sales DIRECTLY from here help defray costs of this board. (Works for US residents only.)
Offline Mike D  
#9 Posted : Thursday, November 8, 2018 11:08:48 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Between the moon and NYC
Originally Posted by: MissJ Go to Quoted Post
Skin expanders have been used in PS for many years for reconstructive surgery. For reconstructive purposes, they are left in for a long time so the skin increases in surface area but stays kind of stretched out so it doesn't shrink back when it's used as skin to go over something like a burn injury.

Years back, Feldman told me that it was once common practice for some face lift surgeons to use an expander during a face lift which stretches out the skin so they can cut off more. Since it's not left in for a long time the skin still has ability to 'snap back' or shrink back which is what makes the facelift TIGHTER. However, I'm not sure if this was Man's face expander or just a generic expander.





Not sure that Man’s expander was anything different than what you describe. I only vaguely remember his article, and I think he ended up getting a patent for it. As you know, there are more than a few surgeons that refine a common tool for PS (like spreaders, osteotomes and rasps) and then patent and sell the refined version.

As far as the “stretch out” during a facelift, was that also the rationale behind the “super tumescent” blow out that Lucille Iocovelli had and thought was the reason (or one of the reasons) for her lift failing after her rhinoplasty?
Offline Mike D  
#10 Posted : Thursday, November 8, 2018 11:13:44 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Between the moon and NYC
Originally Posted by: MissJ Go to Quoted Post
Skin expanders have been used in PS for many years for reconstructive surgery. For reconstructive purposes, they are left in for a long time so the skin increases in surface area but stays kind of stretched out so it doesn't shrink back when it's used as skin to go over something like a burn injury.


Yes I’ve seen many interesting cases where they are used to give more surface area to help reconstruct facial scars. Also commonly used (or were) for breast reconstruction after a mastectomy (although there are more and more cases of tissue sparing mastectomies and also really interesting flap advancements from abdominal skin.
Offline MissJ  
#11 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2018 12:47:50 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 26,432


Originally Posted by: Mike D Go to Quoted Post
Not sure that Man’s expander was anything different than what you describe. I only vaguely remember his article, and I think he ended up getting a patent for it. As you know, there are more than a few surgeons that refine a common tool for PS (like spreaders, osteotomes and rasps) and then patent and sell the refined version.


Indeed and I think it's like that with Man's patent.

Originally Posted by: Mike D Go to Quoted Post
As far as the “stretch out” during a facelift, was that also the rationale behind the “super tumescent” blow out that Lucille Iocovelli had and thought was the reason (or one of the reasons) for her lift failing after her rhinoplasty?


Actually, the topic came up during a chat with Feldman about Iacovelli where he said that some docs use the expanders in order to cut off more skin and have it shrink down to make the face tight. However, the blow out technique she had was not with that specific aim as it was a technique said to make the healing quicker. thing is that it probably circumvented the tissue inflammation process where tissue glue is formed from the inflammation and hence her tissue planes did not stick together. (no favorable fibrosis from it which results from the increased inflammation process of a longer healing period.) With the expander, one still gets the prolonged inflammation phase. But not with the face blow out where there are oceans full of lidocaine and anti-inflammatory stuff to speed up the healing.

Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.


If reading these posts has been helpful to you, consider helping out the board by purchasing via my AMAZON PORTAL seen at the top of each page.

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Offline macaroon lover  
#12 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2018 1:20:21 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/23/2011(UTC)
Posts: 504
Originally Posted by: MissJ Go to Quoted Post
You would be looking like an albino strawberry for a few weeks until the little brown scabs fell off. I found a more straight forward presentation of a similar device (plasma pen). As you can see, it improves skin superficially but the person in the photo still would need a face lift. Read a JAMA article where it's a good choice to use DURING a face lift. It would probably be a good finishing touch after one too. Just be vigilant about docs who try to give impression it's an alternative to a face lift, especially the ones who also do the face lifts, especially those who don't make clear in their photo presentations they use as ADJUNCT to their lifts .

UserPostedImage


I was wondering about this Pasma Pen device. It is quite popular here, especially for upper and lower eyelids. What is your thought on that? I was thinking that it might help tighten the skin but could be counterproductive if one wants an upper/lower bleph down the line cause the person might heal differently?
Offline MissJ  
#13 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2018 9:53:27 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 26,432
It looks promising for someone where some modest skin shrinkage/tightening would work for them. But if they actually would benefit more from a cut to the skin to remove a precise shape/segment of skin (like when the skin is really saggy,crepy and droopy to the upper lid), it would not be a substitute for that. Basically, it would not subsitute for a surgery where a specific vector/direction of pull or alteration of deeper tissues is needed to reorient more tissue than just the superficial surface layer.

As in the photo, 'it is what it is'; something that can improve the superficial skin layer.
Originally Posted by: macaroon lover Go to Quoted Post
I was wondering about this Pasma Pen device. It is quite popular here, especially for upper and lower eyelids. What is your thought on that? I was thinking that it might help tighten the skin but could be counterproductive if one wants an upper/lower bleph down the line cause the person might heal differently?


Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.


If reading these posts has been helpful to you, consider helping out the board by purchasing via my AMAZON PORTAL seen at the top of each page.

Sales DIRECTLY from here help defray costs of this board. (Works for US residents only.)
Offline Page  
#14 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2018 7:50:43 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 491
Location: Michigan
So happy to see you back MissJ!
Offline makingchoices  
#15 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2018 8:14:05 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 179
Thank you all. I know the discussion has expanded past my original question. I am just astonished by the depth of knowledge in this board ( especially MissJ)Its great to be a part of it as I try to get up the courage to go under the knife again in the expert hands of Dr Marten. I wonder, does he sometimes use laser or skin treatments at the same time as surgery? With Dr Little I did not have anything like that, but I was amazed by the rejuvenating effects of just the fat transfer itself. I'm not sure how much of that will happen again - I originally thought I would want fat suctioned out of my cheeks , but since I've lost weight it does not look necessary. I remember Dr Marten suggesting fat to the temples, eye area and possibly along the jaw line. And lips augmented - mostly upper lip.

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