logo

Help SUPPORT Miss J's Forum by shopping through: Miss J's AMAZON PORTAL

Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login.
Registrations are CLOSED. Please see this topic for more information.

Notification

Icon
Error

3 Pages123>
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline Brazil Jaw  
#1 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 10:40:20 AM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 9/21/2017(UTC)
Posts: 15
Hello, Miss J members

I would like your opinion. I have a recessive lower jaw, and I think I could have some benefit in an lower third augmentation. I'm really unsure how should I proceed: Bimax with CCW or Jaw implants/chin wing/genioplasty. My jawline is poorly developed, specially the gonial angles, they're "inverted to inside" in the frontal view. I dont like my chin either: small chin, with bad projection. I know Bimax is not the solution to my gonial angles problem, but this may be the solution for my chin. But, at the moment, I think I should go for implants alone. Even if my labiomental fold gets deeper, I could do some filler in the area. And implants can increase the chin in 3 dimensions and resolves the gonial angle.

I have a thin upper lip, and a large bottom lip. In the profile view, you can see the distance between these two. I´m planning in do some fillers in upper lip, I´m unsure if filling the upper lip could accentuates so much this lip discrepancy.

I know that Bimax + implants is the best option, but I´m unsure if Bimax in my case is aesthetically worth. Maybe implants alone can have a good results.

I know that my worst feature is my nose, and rhino will have most impact in improving my profile, but first I have to decide if I will do Bimax. I think a straight male nose is the best option. What do you think?

Dark circles is another problem. That i have to solve somehow.

My ears are another problem too, the upper third sticks out a bit and I have a large earlobe. I will do pinnaplasty + earlobe ressection. What do you think?

Thanks in advance

PS: In photos, note that if i put my head in frankfort plane lip discrepancy is really obvious, but when I stand in a more natural head position, my lips looks more balanced. I think I can camouflage well my recession with implants, except my bottom lip that will remains recessed with the implants.

https://imgur.com/a/8oTrT

https://imgur.com/a/yEivY
Brazil Jaw attached the following image(s):
a JSF brazil.jpg (61kb) downloaded 5 time(s).

You cannot view/download attachments. Try to login or register.
Sponsor
If reading these posts has been helpful to you, consider helping out the board by purchasing via my AMAZON PORTAL Sales DIRECTLY from here help defray costs of this board. (Works for US residents only.)
Offline Greg  
#2 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 1:04:39 PM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 117
Man
United Kingdom
Welcome Brazil Jaw,

First, I think that if you haven't done so already, it would be beneficial for you to have MissJ do a private analysis to help you make smart choices that get it right the first time. Invest in it!

Second, in my opinion bimax should probably be your first step. Later, if you wanted, you might do a chin wing surgery and finesse your jaw angles, etc.
Third, I think bimax would change your face a lot, and it may also change your nose some, for the better--so do bimax before rhino.
Fourth, I don't agree that your nose is your worst feature--your jaw situation needs more immediate help. Your nose is a normal masculine nose (a good thing)--of course, yes, it will be better when you have a conservative rhinoplasty to remove the hump in the dorsum and get that profile straight, and some minor tip refinement. But deal with your jaw stuff first.
Fifth, leave your lips alone for now, at least until you've done the big stuff--then reevaluate where you stand....your lip can be affected by bimax.
Sixth, I think you should leave your ears alone--at least until you deal with the bone/jaw stuff. Personally, I think having one's ears pinned sometimes negatively affects the face because it changes the proportional relationship between face and ears...so at least hold off on the ears. I think ear pinning is an outdated look for a man except for when his ears truly stick way out--which your's don't.

Choose cautiously. I wish you the best!
Offline Brazil Jaw  
#3 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 3:05:49 PM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 9/21/2017(UTC)
Posts: 15
Thanks for your opinion Greg!!

I send a PM for MissJ, it's a difficult case. Feeling a bit hopeless.

I think that what makes my nose looks so odd is the long dorsum. But i'm afraid I can not do anything in this case.
Offline MissJ  
#4 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 6:41:09 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 25,693
Rudimentary ceph analysis reveals 'conundrums' where if you use ANB (difference between SNA-SNB), it's about 0 to 2 degrees where 2 degrees is norm and also going to be my margin of error for using a hand held protractor. If it's less than 2, than class 3, more than 2 class 2. Also the S-N line (plane) is angled about 15 degrees from a constructed horizontal and the NORM for a constructed horizont is 7 degrees away from the the S-N line. BUT the norm also is that most people's S-N line is 7 degrees away from a horizont. Hence, his S-N line is angled too much away from any horizont and using ANB can't be relied on as there will be errors.

Other measures reveal he already has counter clockwise rotation of the ANS-PNS and he is a counter clockwise 'horizontal' pattern which negates CCW rotation.

Jarabak's ratio is about 68% where as more than 62% is horizontal growth pattern BUT it does look like the anterior-posterior direction of his jaw is small.

What I'm saying is that with reference to his CEPH (keep in mind he's NOT showing proper photos of his face here), he's got measures that seem to negate doing some bi-max things. Like bring forward the maxilla in order to bring forward the jaw and the nose is going to get really bad. I can't go over every self negating thing. But just to mention that type of S-N plane deviation can throw measures off and of the zillions of ceph analysis methods to use, i don't know which one for his case. The S-N deviation is significant and associated with ERRORS when it's used and it's used in MANY.

It just looks like he has a very small bone structure but with a very prominent nose. Usually one does the rhino while having a bi-max and/or after. But in his case, he might want to do that first.

From the ceph, his jaw balance looks pretty OK and other lines indicate 'OK' for other types of balance. Hence it looks like he's just got a small bone structure over powered by the NOSE and maybe should go for that first.

Basically, his ceph is not like other people's where it's very OBVIOUS maxfax/bi max is the solution to balance. He already has a lot of balance albeit with a very small face.
Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.
Offline Greg  
#5 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 5:53:13 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 117
Man
United Kingdom
Ah, ok, I was picturing that the rotation was going to slightly improve Brazil Jaw's nasal spine situation, but from what you're saying MissJ, it would do the opposite....got it.

Looking at the ceph photo, and setting aside the nose for a moment, it does seem like he would get some aesthetic improvement from bringing the S-N line nearer to horizontal (like between 0 and 7 degrees). If so, couldn't any negative trade-off to the nose then be mostly compensated for with very skilled rhinoplasty? I'm picturing moving the maxilla just a little forward but moving the mandible forward a lot more than the maxilla.

Can some of the increase he needs to the mandible be accomplished via a modified sliding genio that brings his chin both forward and down--and possibly also widens the chin laterally a bit via a vertical bone cut separation to the center of the chin?
Offline Greg  
#6 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 5:56:13 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 117
Man
United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: Brazil Jaw Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for your opinion Greg!!

I send a PM for MissJ, it's a difficult case. Feeling a bit hopeless.

I think that what makes my nose looks so odd is the long dorsum. But i'm afraid I can not do anything in this case.


Don't feel hopeless Brazil Jaw! In the right surgeon's hands your nose can be made very nice.
Offline Brazil Jaw  
#7 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 6:12:59 AM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 9/21/2017(UTC)
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by: Greg Go to Quoted Post
Don't feel hopeless Brazil Jaw! In the right surgeon's hands your nose can be made very nice.


Thanks Greg!!

Should I deproject a little bit the tip or no?
Offline Brazil Jaw  
#8 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 6:52:49 AM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 9/21/2017(UTC)
Posts: 15
I understand what MissJ say. Advancing nasal spine, can makes the nose really odd, and i think nose has the most important role in aesthetics of face. So, this trade off could end really bad. Maybe, maybe a CCW with only posterior downgrafting of maxilla, can create space to jaw be project forward
Offline Hydroxyboy  
#9 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 7:48:09 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/28/2009(UTC)
Posts: 468
Location: Amsterdam
I had bimax twice. Agree on doing the nose and lips last. My nose became wider each time and my lips became very full. Had both corrected after the last bimax. With the right guidance and choice you will get to where you want to be.
Offline Greg  
#10 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:12:26 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 117
Man
United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: Brazil Jaw Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Greg!!

Should I deproject a little bit the tip or no?


Personally I don't think your tip will need to be deprojected, but it depends somewhat on what you do with your jaw/chin because there should be balance amongst the nose and other facial features. It also depends on personal taste. There may be traditional rhino doctors who will suggest deprojecting the tip. And others here may suggest it. I just think a man needs to be--within reason--protective of the strong, masculine qualities of his nose. If too much is done/reduced and it gets feminized, that is difficult to reverse.

To me the thing that calls out most for adjustment in the lower third of your nose is the columella and its relationship to your alar rims.

If you study images of successful male models, you'll find that they can often have imperfect noses. What they do always have though are strong, ideal jaw lines.
Offline Brazil Jaw  
#11 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:22:40 AM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 9/21/2017(UTC)
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by: Greg Go to Quoted Post
Personally I don't think your tip will need to be deprojected, but it depends somewhat on what you do with your jaw/chin because there should be balance amongst the nose and other facial features. It also depends on personal taste. There may be traditional rhino doctors who will suggest deprojecting the tip. And others here may suggest it. I just think a man needs to be--within reason--protective of the strong, masculine qualities of his nose. If too much is done/reduced and it gets feminized, that is difficult to reverse.

To me the thing that calls out most for adjustment in the lower third of your nose is the columella and its relationship to your alar rims.

If you study images of successful male models, you'll find that they can often have imperfect noses. What they do always have though are strong, ideal jaw lines.


Good point. My overcurved columella and some degree of alar rim excess makes my nose strange. But i'm completely clueless how to manage this.
Offline MissJ  
#12 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:25:45 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 25,693
That's the puzzle. you are already a CCW grower. People just PARROT CCW. Many of whom don't know that it is applicable to clockwise growers or clockwise orientation, the act of OFFSETTING extra clockwise orientation. You don't have what I see as any extra clockwise orientation to offset. Some people just have things where if you try to address ONE with a bimax displacement, something ELSE will be 'wrong'. For example, maxilla at ANS-PNS is oriented CCW away from a horizont and your occlusal plane is about approx 4-5 degrees which is within the norm. Like you don't have the angle relationships that they usually want to change via the bi-max and you have angle relationships (like 15 degrees away from horizont for S-N plane) that can make ERRORS with other measures.

Although I know more about the ceph relationships than the average poster, i'm not 'expert' enough to tell you exactly what to do given your puzzling ceph relationships other than to tell you to go to a max fax and inquire directly about them. I would also request that you convey WHAT a max fax told you.

The ceph is the only valid photo you have. your other photos= NO GOOD for a PS basic evaluation. IF I did a PS evaluation (one maybe for implants), I need full front face with eyes, profile and 3/4 view and best with NO facial hair. So, NO WAY, i can give any kind of feedback here on your face photos.



Originally Posted by: Brazil Jaw Go to Quoted Post
I understand what MissJ say. Advancing nasal spine, can makes the nose really odd, and i think nose has the most important role in aesthetics of face. So, this trade off could end really bad. Maybe, maybe a CCW with only posterior downgrafting of maxilla, can create space to jaw be project forward


Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.
Offline Brazil Jaw  
#13 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:47:06 PM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 9/21/2017(UTC)
Posts: 15
Thanks Miss J, i'm going to maxfac soon. He will do some Dolphin 3D morphs to see what is obtainable
Offline MissJ  
#14 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:49:25 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 25,693
S, (sella turcica) is a FIXED point. N, for all intents and purposes is a FIXED point to the cranial base. Those are NOT changed.


Originally Posted by: Greg Go to Quoted Post
Ah, ok, I was picturing that the rotation was going to slightly improve Brazil Jaw's nasal spine situation, but from what you're saying MissJ, it would do the opposite....got it.

Looking at the ceph photo, and setting aside the nose for a moment, it does seem like he would get some aesthetic improvement from bringing the S-N line nearer to horizontal (like between 0 and 7 degrees). If so, couldn't any negative trade-off to the nose then be mostly compensated for with very skilled rhinoplasty? I'm picturing moving the maxilla just a little forward but moving the mandible forward a lot more than the maxilla.

Can some of the increase he needs to the mandible be accomplished via a modified sliding genio that brings his chin both forward and down--and possibly also widens the chin laterally a bit via a vertical bone cut separation to the center of the chin?


Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.
Offline Brazil Jaw  
#15 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 3:02:53 PM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 9/21/2017(UTC)
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by: MissJ Go to Quoted Post
S, (sella turcica) is a FIXED point. N, for all intents and purposes is a FIXED point to the cranial base. Those are NOT changed.






Only way this can be masked is a forehead implant I think. don't know if is aesthetically worthing

Edited by user Saturday, September 23, 2017 4:13:47 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Users browsing this topic
Guest (3)
Previous Topic Next Topic
3 Pages123>
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.