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Offline Sophia  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2019 7:53:39 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/21/2008(UTC)
Posts: 534
I am wondering if I could up my skin routine. I am using Retin A 0.5% nighttime (almost daily) and then Glycolic acid in the morning. I have a nice one from India with Vitamin E which seems to work well.
I have used copper peptides for a while and I am wondering if I should order them again? Are they worth using? (Greenish face night time and not the most pleasant smell...)

Is there a consens about what skin routine is the most effective when you are about 50 years old?

I find that despite the common belief that you need to hydrate your skin a lot, I find that for me counter productive. It dries my skin on a long run.


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Offline Robin  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2019 8:25:42 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,016
Location: No PMs
what's best depends on what your particular skin condition and concerns are. what are you trying to solve for?
Offline Mike D  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2019 8:47:27 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,062
Location: Between the moon and NYC
I agree with Robin and ask the same question with the observation that skin care is very unique to the individual. What works very well for me might not work well or irritate your skin, even though we might have the same skin type, concerns and goals.

That being said, you mention good products. All have done well for many people. Vitamin C is also good for some, and you might want to explore some lasers and skin peels.
Offline MissJ  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2019 9:07:41 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 26,546
Skin care is problem specific. If you just want generalities, those are:

Limit sun, smoking , eat a balanced diet, exercise and be sure to hydrate.
Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.


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Offline Sarah W  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, March 13, 2019 12:15:10 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/4/2008(UTC)
Posts: 9,121
Woman
Yes a good reminder about hydration. I must drink more water.
Offline JB01  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, March 13, 2019 7:41:16 AM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 1/8/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8
If you're tolerating the Retin-A daily application well, you're already doing one of the best things you can do topically for skin (other than sun protection - see further down).

The glycolic acid product, if it has a high enough free acid value (calculated on total % of acid and the pH) may also be stimulating collagen in the skin, albeit mildliy. The main age-related benefit you will see from the glycolic acid is smoother skin as it makes the stratum corneum (outermost layer of skin) more compact (which makes it reflect light in a more flattering way) and increases some polysaccharides in the skin that contribute to moisture. It's also a good way to clean out clogged pores if that is an issue.

If you're using both of these, I would strongly suggest you use a daily sunscreen as well, as sun exposure will undo all of the good things that the retin-a and glycolic acid are doing. Some prefer sunscreens from Europe that have very high UVA protection (as measured by PPD in Europe). The downside is that many are greasy and/or whitening. Others prefer Asian (mainly Japanese and Korean) sunscreens that have moderate-to-high UVA protection (but still better than most products in the US - don't know where you're located), but offer some really nice, non-greasy, non-whitening finishes depending on the product. The most important thing is probably finding a sunscreen with adequate UVA protection that you're willing to use regularly.

You could also look into trying a vitamin c product (in the form of ascorbic acid, not one of the derivatives such as magnesium ascorbyl phosphate and the like, which are not as effective), but unless you have exceptionally tough skin, it might be sensitizing in addition to both the retin-a and glycolic acid.
Offline Mike D  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, March 13, 2019 12:30:02 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,062
Location: Between the moon and NYC
Very good advice JB01.

In terms of sunscreens that offer high UVA protection, do you know of any particular brands that stand out AND are non-whitening? For now, I’m using a US brand called Clear Choice that I like and is non-whitening. I’m always looking for more/better options, however.
Offline JB01  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, March 13, 2019 8:33:11 PM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 1/8/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8
Mike D - I tried looking up the sunscreen you mentioned and found a ClearChoice Sport Shield SPF 45 with 9% zinc oxide. Is that the product you're using? This is the ingredient list I found online:

Certified Organic Aloe Vera, 9% Micronized Zinc, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Vitamin D, Grape Seed Extract, Evening Primrose, Sunflower Seed, Safflower Seed, Slippery Elm, Borage Oil, Alpha Bisabolol (Chamomile), Plantains, Allantoin, Hyaluronic Acid, and Squalane.

9% zinc oxide will provide moderate UVA protection depending on the particle size (which is not listed - they say "micronized" but there is no standard definition in the US as there is in the EU, which defines micronized as having a particle size of more than 100nm and nano as less than 100 nm). However, if the ingredient list above is correct, this is not a sophisticated sunscreen - it has no good film formers, the zinc oxide is not coated, and there are not SPF boosters, which would all help to ensure that the sunscreen performs adequately in real-life settings.

If you're looking to find a product with labeled UVA protection that is probably greater than what you're using, I'd recommend:

- Skin Aqua Super Moisture Milk SPF 50 - this has a UVA rating of PA++++ which translates to a PPD of 16+, meaning it will take at least 16 times longer sun exposure to result in skin darkening (a measure of UVA protection). It is non-whitening except for on very dark skin tones and uses some nice UV filters not available in the US yet (Uvinul A Plus, for example) in addition to zinc oxide and octinoxate. Where it really shines is the texture - it is a light, fluid texture that dries quickly to a non-shiny finish that feels light on the skin.
- Elta MD UV Clear SPF 46 - this is a US sunscreen, so relies on zinc oxide and octinoxate (tried and true combination that works synergistically), but many seem to report that it is non-whitening and not overly greasy. This one is easily procured in the US since it's a domestic brand. The brand has told consumers via email that the PPD is 16+, which is very impressive for a US sunscreen.

Both of the above can be purchased on Amazon (of course through Miss J's amazon portal) and aren't too expensive (not the Skin Aqua is a Japanese sunscreen so depending on the vendor, it might take up to 2 weeks to receive it). I also like Allie's sunscreens, which can also be purchased on Amazon, but are a tad more whitening than the Skin Aqua.

It's been too long since I've tested European brands, but many use La Roche Posay, Bioderma, and Ultrasun's European formulations (some of these brands produce American versions that are usually inferior in terms of UVA protection). I always found European sunscreens to be greasy and whitening, and I heard the former has gotten worse as many brands have started to phase out the use of volatile silicone oils amidst concerns that the EU will ban them in leave-on products in the following years (for environmental reasons, not safety reasons). However, for those who want very high UVA protection, the European products offer superior protection (some have PPD values that go beyond 40!). There are probably members on this board who use European sunscreens who could give better and more specific product recommendations if that is the route you're interested in taking.
Offline Mike D  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, March 13, 2019 9:53:39 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,062
Location: Between the moon and NYC
JB01 - yes that is the exact Clear Choice sunscreen that I use. It really is the best one I’ve tried SO FAR in terms of not looking greasy and it is non - whitening. I also like it because I’ve received compliments on my skin looking great since wearing it. That being said, I get some really harsh sun exposure and your recommendations really help. I’ll order them both and see how they do. Really impressed by your analysis! Thanks so much.
Offline Mike D  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, March 13, 2019 10:11:12 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,062
Location: Between the moon and NYC
Just ordered the Skin Aqua Super Moisture Milk SPF 50 from Miss J’s portal. US vendor had it and it arrives Saturday:)
Offline MissJ  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, March 13, 2019 10:51:39 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Joined: 5/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 26,546
Thanx Mike. Tell us how it works or if works like that Roche Posay brand.
Miss J. Seeing eye companion to the aesthetically blind since 1998.


If reading these posts has been helpful to you, consider helping out the board by purchasing via my AMAZON PORTAL seen at the top of each page.

Sales DIRECTLY from here help defray costs of this board. (Works for US residents only.)
Offline Mike D  
#12 Posted : Thursday, March 14, 2019 12:06:11 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,062
Location: Between the moon and NYC
Originally Posted by: MissJ Go to Quoted Post
Thanx Mike. Tell us how it works or if works like that Roche Posay brand.


Will do.
Offline Sophia  
#13 Posted : Thursday, March 14, 2019 9:05:13 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/21/2008(UTC)
Posts: 534
Originally Posted by: JB01 Go to Quoted Post
If you're tolerating the Retin-A daily application well, you're already doing one of the best things you can do topically for skin (other than sun protection - see further down).

The glycolic acid product, if it has a high enough free acid value (calculated on total % of acid and the pH) may also be stimulating collagen in the skin, albeit mildliy. The main age-related benefit you will see from the glycolic acid is smoother skin as it makes the stratum corneum (outermost layer of skin) more compact (which makes it reflect light in a more flattering way) and increases some polysaccharides in the skin that contribute to moisture. It's also a good way to clean out clogged pores if that is an issue.

If you're using both of these, I would strongly suggest you use a daily sunscreen as well, as sun exposure will undo all of the good things that the retin-a and glycolic acid are doing. Some prefer sunscreens from Europe that have very high UVA protection (as measured by PPD in Europe). The downside is that many are greasy and/or whitening. Others prefer Asian (mainly Japanese and Korean) sunscreens that have moderate-to-high UVA protection (but still better than most products in the US - don't know where you're located), but offer some really nice, non-greasy, non-whitening finishes depending on the product. The most important thing is probably finding a sunscreen with adequate UVA protection that you're willing to use regularly.

You could also look into trying a vitamin c product (in the form of ascorbic acid, not one of the derivatives such as magnesium ascorbyl phosphate and the like, which are not as effective), but unless you have exceptionally tough skin, it might be sensitizing in addition to both the retin-a and glycolic acid.


WOW!!
Thanks so much for your detailed explanation and recommendations. A lot of things start to make sense to me.
Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions since you seem to be so knowledgeable in this field

Do you think every day RetinA nighttime is too much? I have read there is no benefit in using it every day versus three times a week. I use it almost daily anyways.

Interesting take on your sunscreens. I am ordering my sunscreens in the US because I thought the higher the better. Only in the US I get the 100 SPF creams. I am living in China and I am in Europe often as well. Do you think a BB cream is also ok. I am not staying in the sun, Shanghai is not the place to spend hours in the sun. But you are right finding a sunscreen that I am willing to use on a daily basis is tough. Do you think a BB cream with SPF would do?

I find that I don´t need to moisterize a lot. Maybe that is the benefit of the Glyco A.

And last question: What do you think of copper peptides? I used them for a while but don´t know if I saw results or not. Hard to say as I also used RetinA and Glycos.


Offline Chris K  
#14 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2019 9:47:48 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/2008(UTC)
Posts: 8,601
Woman
Location: miss j's board
a good skin care routine is much like a person's diet or digestion, meaning everyone's is individual.

that said, other than a prescription retinoid, everything you need to have decent skin is available at the local drugstore. the fancy expensive shit is BS if you ask me. all these antioxidants that are so called used in expensive products are best reflected in the skin through consuming with diet.

i have a feeling the glowing effects seen when using fancy, expensive products are simply surface humectants and oils that paint an "invisible make-up sheen" on the skin until washed off. OR many of these products have caffeine in them which temporarily tightens skin and shrinks blood vessels much like Visine. Cliniques 'White Line' list caffeine and titanium dioxide as main ingredients. so shrink blood vessels and paint a white hue onto the face to fool consumers into believing skin is getting whiter. it's a corrupt industry that prey on the uninformed.

diet and hydration are huge factors in the overall look and vitality of the skin. essential fatty acids are huge factors in the quality and appearance of the skin and should be considered daily.


i'm a big believer in using a body lotion at least every other day that contains alpha hydroxy acids like AmLactin or Glycolic acid. it really sloughs off the dead layers and penetrates the deeper layers OR allows the deeper layers to be penetrated.


i also think its good to use a urea foam mousse for the feet that keeps them looking young and fresh. Umecta is one brand.


over the years after trying many sunblocks - some expensive, some not, i believe if you are in strong direct sun for a long period PHYSICAL SUNBLOCKS are SUPERIOR to chemical sunscreens. a simple zinc oxide/tatinium dioxide sunblock really does deflect rays and will not allow you to burn or accrue photo damage. yes you will look like you have white paint on your face but so what. i also believe Zinc Oxide has healing properties for irritated, red skin or sunburned. i use diaper cream when my skin is red and irritated. Desitin Original Diaper cream offers the highest amount of Zinc at 40%. the natural version 'butt paste' offers 40 as well but its not emulsified with other oils. i prefer desitin. if you've ever seen an angry, red, raw looking diaper rash on a baby you will understand the healing power of Desitin or 40% zinc oxide.


good skin is an ongoing process like health and does not happen over night. truly healthy skin is a reflection of the health of the inner organs.



the subject of lasers is whole separate topic that i'm not a total expert in but i do believe in the effects of micro needling.
Offline Sarah W  
#15 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2019 2:03:53 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/4/2008(UTC)
Posts: 9,121
Woman
Thank you Chris. Helpful as always. Do you personally do microneedling? I would like to try it. And yes, I agree about the diet.Sugar is a bad culprit and drink heaps of pure water.
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